No Take Ban

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10ozgrabba
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Re: No Take Ban

Post by 10ozgrabba » Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:14 pm

morefish wrote: Actually, 10ozgrabba, I do know who you are and I know that you know the truth. You are simply trying to destroy the project, as your very first post on this matter shows, by spewing out falsehoods. And the petition would only be an attempt to hijack the issue, not improve it.
You have no clue who I am. you are pretending to know what you do not which says everything about your integrity. This thread was started by me as a re post form "Hawaii goes fishing" as to raise awareness as I share the same concerns. say what you want, I'm not buying what your selling.

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Re: No Take Ban

Post by morefish » Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:22 am

Yes, twoqttsdad, it has proven once again to be pointless. And I believe more and more people are just not going to bother asking fishermen for their opinions any more because they already know your answer. Fishers are always complaining that nobody asks them or consults with them and that's the reason why.

I came on this forum to give you all some correct information when you had been given grossly incorrect information. That is all. I suppose somewhere in my heart I hoped that maybe truth would win out over disinformation, but it doesn't seem so.

So, as alternate voices and opinions are discouraged in this forum, don't be surprised when all you get is people who agree with you. And then you will convince yourselves you must be right because everyone agrees with you. Logical?

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Re: No Take Ban

Post by morefish » Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:21 pm

If what you say is true, then going on a fishing forum to discuss a No Take Ban is pointless for the most part.
I would call that remark a discouragement from further discussion.

The point is that I wanted to give you all the true information about the Ka'upulehu project. You hadn't gotten that. Now you have.

I would still like to see some genuine, thought-provoking conversation on this forum about what to do about the drastically declining fisheries.

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Re: No Take Ban

Post by fishyfishy » Wed Jul 04, 2012 8:26 pm

morefish wrote: The point is that I wanted to give you all the true information about the Ka'upulehu project. You hadn't gotten that. Now you have.

I would still like to see some genuine, thought-provoking conversation on this forum about what to do about the drastically declining fisheries.
You want to talk, lets talk.

I have read (mostly) through some lengthy posts and have this to say for those concerned with this subject.

Here on Maui we have the Ahihi Kinau Natural Area Reserve, the most strictest reserve in the entire state, absolutely no taking of anything, and no motorized vessels or commercial tours either, only one road in and one road out.....but there is hardly any fish in the reserve, this area is not developed at all, its remote, a couple houses, and its on the lee side of the island where it rarely rains, and its all lava so runoff is not an issue...still no fish...because despite have a ranger program, volunteers watchful eyes and a docare officer that lives just one mile down the road....the reserve does not have fish...I'll leave it up to your imagination as to why.

Realistically, you do not have enough enforcement to defend 4 miles of coastline...the poachers will rob you blind.....and yes, this closure will put fishing pressure on areas left open, because that stretch of coastline hardly has any beach access to begin with. so fishers will be forced into the remaining few beach access and parks.

someone said that they heard others say that enforcing STRICT fishing regs is too hard compared to a complete closure...that is because those who think its too hard do not fully understand the impacts STRICT regs can have, nor do they understand how hard it is to defend a reserve....continued...
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Re: No Take Ban

Post by fishyfishy » Wed Jul 04, 2012 8:41 pm

There is an inherent problem with trying to manage just small pieces of shoreline (MPAs)...its that MPAs don't curb overfishing......its true. You will succeed somewhat with your 4 miles, after 10 years, the fish will be very tame, and because you can swim right up to them, many will be able to see those fish and claim the reserve a success, just like they do here on Maui...but in reality, the reserve here is a failure compared to what it supposed to be.

If this MPA is successful, it will end up segregating and alienating the various stakeholders, dividing the community...the big island coastline will end up being cut into pieces of pie...divided ye falls.

Hawaiians believe in the Mountain to the Sea approach....but in reef management, there is also a Sea to Sea approach as well....in other words, what happens in one part of a nearby shoreline, directly affects the surrounding shorelines.....I'm not talking about spillover from MPAs...I am saying...MANAGE YOUR ENTIRE COASTLINE...not just pieces of the pie.

MPAs by themselves do not solve the overall situation, they are just one tool, and if used by itself, can make things worse because they do not curb overfishing....in one study I read that was published by a certain conservancy group in Hawaii, stated that a certain set of marine reserves in the south pacific allowed for X percentage of fish to return to the area....but it also stated that in the areas left open to fishing, 80% of the parrotfish declined...yet they were touting the reserve as a success....I would call that a detriment.
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Re: No Take Ban

Post by fishyfishy » Wed Jul 04, 2012 8:58 pm

I could offer so many other alternatives to an MPA, regs that would achieve the same result as an MPA....but no sense, because those behind this initiative have made up their minds. so I am offering thoughts...examples...for you to think about.

and one last thing...Kahului Harbor Fishing Management Area, Maui....the old timers got some rules put in just for this small harbor...no nets of any kind, except for surround for the species Akule, not even nehu nets..only scoop nets ....two poles per person, single hooks only, no treble...50 fish bag limit (mostly about halalu), fisher check in stations, volunteer program..diving is allowed.....what this place did was prove that management can work.... the fishing regs was made specifically for the game species in the harbor....so the result so far from what we can see is the mullet population is thriving, compared to what it used to be...Moi, Papio and Lai are common because the Nehu population has been put under protection (if the icebox get food the predators will come)....and yes, there are problems with lawbreakers just like anywhere else, but nonetheless, the regs are working and the fish are coming back....only people alienated were the greedy ones.

just sharing an experience with a Fishing Management Area....and to think, these rules aren't even that strict, yet we experience success....hmmm?
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Re: No Take Ban

Post by fishyfishy » Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:10 pm

I have watched the Kona community manage their coastline, and compared to the rest of the state, they doing pretty good.....but what I also see is loopholes in the regs they have put in, in the regs that they want to put in....they do a good job but jusssssst don't quite take it far enough....such as the proposed ban on scuba spearing..admirable...but not good enough...the scuba guys will just turn to traps or some other crafty method of harvesting fish we haven't thought of...FRAs....no take aquarium zones...but can still spear or net the pretty fish....now we talking MPA, 4 miles no take for x years...loophole yet again....and I'm not going to say what it is, if you smart, you will figure it out. :wink:

the kona coastline is more like one big science experiment, all show no go....despite all the community effort here and there....kona still has not curbed it's problem with OVERFISHING...obviously, cuz if it did, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
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Re: No Take Ban

Post by morefish » Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:19 pm

And here we are, right back to the same thought processes! MPAs don't work, nobody can manage anything, protected areas just put pressure on surrounding areas. Not a single one of those remarks is based on science. It's based on the same kind of heresay and badmouthing of all the people who are trying to keep the fisheries from collapse. LET'S SEE THE SCIENCE OF ANY OF THOSE REMARKS. This is the kind of crap that led this whole state into a state of seriously declining fisheries.

Fishyfishy doesn't live here, he doesn't know what he's talking about. "Yeah, Kona is doing good but not quite good enough." Guess what, fishyfishy. We're doing a whole lot better than Maui. The scientific data shows that we have more fish than anyplace else in the state. I can show you the figures. Let's see yours!

Just for the record, I am no longer speaking about Ka'upulehu or their project. This is strictly my views (that some of you say I'm free to express) about the fact is that you folks posting on this forum don't want to do a gd thing. You want things to go on as they always have and when they collapse, you'll blame someone else, as you always do.

Don't give me this labelling shxt. You've labelled yourselves by your consistent negative remarks and attitudes.

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Re: No Take Ban

Post by morefish » Thu Jul 05, 2012 7:27 am

Oh, man! Forgive me.
Too much beer, too much BBQ, too many kids, too much noise. I didn't have to be so rude. Sorry.

One thing I do know, it's time to change threads.

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Re: No Take Ban

Post by fishyfishy » Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:01 am

morefish wrote:And here we are, right back to the same thought processes! MPAs don't work, nobody can manage anything, protected areas just put pressure on surrounding areas. Not a single one of those remarks is based on science. It's based on the same kind of heresay and badmouthing of all the people who are trying to keep the fisheries from collapse. LET'S SEE THE SCIENCE OF ANY OF THOSE REMARKS. This is the kind of crap that led this whole state into a state of seriously declining fisheries.

Fishyfishy doesn't live here, he doesn't know what he's talking about. "Yeah, Kona is doing good but not quite good enough." Guess what, fishyfishy. We're doing a whole lot better than Maui. The scientific data shows that we have more fish than anyplace else in the state. I can show you the figures. Let's see yours!
the study I referred to in the south pacific was SCIENCE...what has happened to the strictest MPA in our state is an EXAMPLE.

And I am not against MPAs, because the state has many levels of MPAs, I'm just against the strictest one, completely no fishing....here on maui we have a type of MPA known as a "no take herbivore zone"....can take stuff just not herbivores....me and my friends testified in favor of its implementation.

MPAs can work...there is no doubt about it, for certain species...rules can work the same way if you are creative and strict enough with them......but nothing works if you can't defend it.

and the reason Kona has fish still is not because of your management, I been diving there, I seen your grounds, you have fish there because the populations are spread out along a vast coastline, "carrying capacity" has not been maxed out yet like it is here on Maui...currents and structures are very good there, encouraging good recruitment..unlike maui

Your blind fury to implement this MPA has only alienated fishermen...as seen here....you would be amazed if instead, you spoke about very very strict regs, how many fishermen here would agree with you....and help you.

I'm just saying in all of this, there is more than one way to save the fish...if YOU can have an open mind.

and you should really sit down and reason things out with konaplugcaster.....compromise is always better.
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Re: No Take Ban

Post by fishyfishy » Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:13 am

morefish wrote: ... about the fact is that you folks posting on this forum don't want to do a gd thing. You want things to go on as they always have and when they collapse, you'll blame someone else, as you always do.
.
I don't mean any of my posts to be insulting, if you find them that way I apologize...I realize sometimes typed words can leave a wrong impression.

....but...I hope you not referring to me in this generalized statement :? ...seriously.
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Re: No Take Ban

Post by morefish » Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:04 am

No, fishyfishy, I was certainly not referring to you, or to any individual in particular. Unlike what some of the posters have tried to do to me. What I was criticizing is a mindset that I see in all the posts, not just this thread, but all of them.
This one person needs to open his eyes.
I really think its all the folks with this closed-minded approach (fishermen know everything, MPAs don't work, etc.) need to open their eyes. I'm not saying they have to agree with me. That's unreasonable, but I would like to see some thinking and discussion and some solutions.

If fishers (men and women) know how to stop overfishing, then why do we need regulations to do it? Why don't fishers self-regulate? If they self-regulated, then we would have tons and tons of fish, right? You see, I read on these threads (various) that 1) it's not fishermen, 2) we need stronger regulations, 3) fishermen know how to protect fish stocks, 4) why isn't the state doing anything? It's a little hard to pin down exactly what you guys think is the answer. The only consistent answer I can see is NO to no-take areas. There's a consistent bloc of that and I would like to know such an idea developed.
in one study I read that was published by a certain conservancy group in Hawaii, stated that a certain set of marine reserves in the south pacific allowed for X percentage of fish to return to the area....but it also stated that in the areas left open to fishing, 80% of the parrotfish declined...yet they were touting the reserve as a success....I would call that a detriment.
the study I referred to in the south pacific was SCIENCE...what has happened to the strictest MPA in our state is an EXAMPLE.
fishyfishy, I would love to have the source citation for the study you reference here. I can also give you 100+ papers that prove that no-take areas DO work, so well that once fishers acccept the idea and see it in action, they ask for more. It is natural to assume that someone who sees his favorite fishing spot being put off limits to him is going to be opposed; I can understand that. So, as I said in an earlier post (and that was taken out of context) there will never be a place that fishermen can agree to as a no-take. Every spot is somebody's spot. But somebody's got to give, because this is the future of fisheries management in our state. Plenty of places in the South Pacific have set aside large no-take areas and are reaping the benefits.

And fishyfishy, you did state in an earlier post that the no-take area on Maui was just a private fishing area for poachers. If there is poaching, no, you will not see much success. You can't blame the process. Blame the poachers.
If this MPA is successful, it will end up segregating and alienating the various stakeholders, dividing the community...
MPAs by themselves do not solve the overall situation, they are just one tool, and if used by itself, can make things worse because they do not curb overfishing....
How can the success of an effort be divisive? If there are more fish for everyone, isn't that a uniting factor?
I do agree that there's much truth in what you say in the second sentence. No-Take areas are just one tool, but they are the best tool, especially when there are no other tools in operation. The best idea, according to scientists, is to use a combination of no-take areas, as well as other regulations for certain species, areas, etc.

Here in Kona we have our FRAs which have been very successful, but the success has been double-sided because it has attracted more AQ guys from around the state. It has increased the fishing pressure in the open areas. This is true. So, a lot of people are trying to put in additional methods, like limited entry, no spearing on SCUBA, etc. to reduce AQ fishing pressure. Now if the whole state had had FRAs, these guys wouldn't have had to come over here. The reason they came is because we're basically the only area with fish. There is also a move to put bag limits on the species that are targeted by both AQ and food fishers. So, if fishers will let them, the loopholes will be shut, one by one.
More generalizations about people he has yet to meet. Showing his true colors.
Okay, forget the direct personal insult to me, which I haven't done to you, but it's fine. 8) I am still waiting, however, for some positive comments, some genuine suggestions. As I said at the top of this post, there is a mindset that I am criticizing. I have yet to see anything to disabuse me of the "generalization" I mentioned.

Usually when people start resorting to personal insults, it means they don't have much left in the way of argument. It means that the argument has become too uncomfortable to address in an intellectual manner, so it's deflected into name-calling. So, prove me wrong that that's not what's happening here.

I really would like to move this discussion to a different thread. Try go to Fishing Policy section. I'll post this same message there and we can keep talking.

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Re: No Take Ban

Post by fishyfishy » Thu Jul 05, 2012 1:33 pm

morefish....maybe more fishermen would believe in MPAs if the state could defend and make successful the ones we currently have???

In the south pacific, the reef systems are very different, very vast from the pics I've seen....and....for certain species, such as the giant clam, an MPA is almost mandatory....but its different here...there are game species that are migratory, such as the papios, uluas, ukus etc....so why can't fishermen continue to catch those while leaving other fish like Uhus, kumus, nenues, kalas etc alone???...you still need the same amount of enforcement, its not anymore difficult than enforcing a closed area.

When MPAs are dubbed successful, you need to look closely at specifics, such as are they referring to game species?...what happens to the surrounding areas that are left open to fishing??...what are the methods of fishing?? canoes? scuba? or maybe the natives have limited access to mask fins and snorkels?? do they have monofilament nets? motorized boats? how big are the reefs ?? and how populated is that area? do they catch fish only for subsistance or do they ship their fish off for commercial purposes??...do they have ice???....yes...ice...big factor when you think about it.......there are many factors that need to be considered when determining if an MPA is indeed successful.....like...successful for who???...and successful why??...do the same limitations exist here so it could be successful here??

and why do scientists like MPAs so much and promote them so much??...because that's all they study....show me a scientist who has studied STRICT regulations....there is none because those types of regs don't exist !!!!!!!! yet.

as for that other study, it was from TNC...I don't wanna go searching for it.
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Re: No Take Ban

Post by morefish » Thu Jul 05, 2012 1:50 pm

Fishyfishy,

Can you tell me what you mean by "strict" regulations? If you were the state DLNR, what would you recommend?

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Re: No Take Ban

Post by fishyfishy » Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:25 pm

morefish wrote:Fishyfishy,

Can you tell me what you mean by "strict" regulations? If you were the state DLNR, what would you recommend?
see other thread...this one is too long already and going downhill, not contsructive.
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